TCO in TOR?

[Docmdnite]

so is TCO forming? i didnt see anything in the guild recruitment stuff. if so what will be the main focus, RP, raiding (if it exists) or just kind of whatever like in SWG?

[Raam Kx'Thorath]

If you do decide to form... then I'd like to wish you all the best of luck.

[Rodo]

At this point, I think at best it's going to be a half-assed attempt to get a group going. The interest is too low and tentative right now, and there are too many unknowns and too much mistrust of the game. I don't think we'll be able to really answer that until it's about time for launch.

I don't see much else out there pulling us together to a common game, unfortunately. But I'm still glad at least we're able to find a few games here and there that we're enjoying in smaller groups.

[Darth Gently]

Unfortunately I believe Rodo has the right of it... but you never know who might step forward to lead the charge.

[Raam Kx'Thorath]

I think the problem with TOR also is that on a guild level, it provides much less functionality that strengthens the desire of guilds to accomplish goals...

In particular something like a huge city like we built with Tsarin... that was an amazing goal because it requires loads of planning and accomplishing something like that was a tremendous goal and continuous work to keep running.

TOR in my eyes has nothing that really supports guild play other than flying the same colours.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's a real shame. I always view games as a great chance to meet new people and to be social but TOR seems to cater to the solo-gamer who wants to accomplish everything without the need to rely on other human beings. I'll more than likely only play it briefly when it comes out if Guild Wars 2 hasn't released by then but I am pretty much into the whole being in an active guild that works together to accomplish goals thing so..

[Gegoran]

WE'll most likely be there, but I'm not sure in what kind of numbers. A lot of features still have to come to light.

[Kal]

There was an initial push to rally all of TCO behind TOR. Opinions have varied as is typical in this group. The game looks good, promises the moon, and has a lot of potential, just like EVERY game that is in development, so I can understand hesitency and even jaded opinions of it.

I think it is still worth TCO encouraging a following in the game. Like most, there will probably be a big swelling at the beginning, then it will level out and probably even shrink as the limitations of the game and weak points are discovered. But I haven't known TCO to just disregard a gaming group potential just because the game might suck.

I loved KotOR1 and KotOR2, I enjoy MMO's though I don't have as much time to be involved in them as I used to, and I believe any Star Wars themed game is worth a try, so I plan to at least try the game when it launches. At worst, I'll play a few months and then find something else to do, but during that time I'll be with TCO again in a game...how can that ever be a bad thing? And at best, the game will be awesome fun and I won't want to ever log out.

[hiro]

LOTRO is fun however, so even if TOR bites, at least I'll be in there . . .


I hope the TOR devs balance out the solo play with lots of stuff for groups and people to go with.

At the same time I'm hoping TOR has space combat like Rogue Sqn or TIE / Xwing . . . but I know if they even do that, it won't be like a fighter sim like TIE / Xwing are . . .

[Kal]

I wouldn't rule out good space combat Hiro. Star Wars Galaxies: Jump to Lightspeed expansion was an incredible space fighter simulation, very much like my memories of X-wing vs. Tie Fighter.

But for initial release, I would expect TOR would focus on individual character experiences (much like SWG did). Space combat is like making a whole separate game.

[Darth Gently]

This off of Games Radar

Originally Posted by Tim Edwards PC Gamer UK

“The Sith is an action-point class. Do you play many MMO games?”
“A few.”
“So he plays a bit like the rogu... oh, you’ve got it.”

At that point, with the help of BioWare’s Rich Vogel, we’re knee deep in Republic corpses, taking down wave after wave of plastic-clad troopers. Our Sith character is deflecting their blaster fire with his lightsaber while we come to grips with his abilities. He earns points by swiping and smashing; he can then spend them on finishing moves. We Force-choke one foe, hanging him by his neck, watching his legs writhe in pain. As he drops to the floor, trying to catch his breath, we turn away and slide a lightsaber into his ribs.

Even at this early stage, The Old Republic is as polished, as playable and as slick as... that other major MMO. Why? How? Because BioWare Austin, the studio responsible, have paid attention to the details from the very start. And their ambition seems limitless. They want to make an MMORPG that encapsulates the essence of their single-player games: a true online sequel to classics like Knights of the Old Republic and Baldur’s Gate. They want to make a game with proficient, modern production values, fully voiced cutscenes and multi-threaded conversations. They want to reduce the grind – removing the tedious fetch 10 and kill 20 quests that plague the genre – and tie everything into their story. They want to introduce genuine consequence, giving parties of players the kind of moral choices their single-player games have become famous for. Except that in this world, there are no save games, no chances to go back and see what might have happened.

Right now, this is the most exciting game in development. As the aforementioned Force-choked trooper slides to the floor, clutching his chest, a horrifying truth becomes apparent: The Old Republic is a credible World of Warcraft killer.

What’s extraordinary is just how playable it is, even at this stage. BioWare have been playing with the working game for months, and are now smoothing the myriad details into a workable whole. “We didn’t want to show the game until there was something playable,” says studio co-director Rich Vogel. “We didn’t even want to announce the game until we had something.” And, as it turns out, the huge Austin studio has already created plenty. “The game is playable. We have a server up and running, we can play the game at home.”

The promise is huge: an MMO that is both as intuitive as an action title and as engrossing as a story-led game. The Star Wars universe, now a few hundred years along from the events of Knights of the Old Republic, and thousands of years before the events of the movies, is the perfect setting for a sci-fi MMO. It’s going to be as rich and deep as any MMO has ever been. But it might not have been this way.

The other studio co-director, Gordon Walton, explains that BioWare could easily have ended up making an MMO other than this one. “We had many options, and we knocked it down two or three several times, but everything came back to Knights of the Old Republic. It was the right universe. We just had to make the deal, so we did.”

Once that deal had been struck there was the formidable task of creating a studio of over a hundred people, which would then produce the content required to fill out a massive, multiplayer world. “BioWare Austin came in to existence in early 2006... We started the game working with only a few people. We’re now a very, very large studio,” says Walton. “Some of the staff came from SOE, but the early seeds were all BioWare. James (Ohlen) has some considerable experience; he was the lead designer on Baldur’s Gate, Baldur’s Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights and KotOR. We knew who the high level core creative team was going be. But the key hire that wasn’t settled on day one was Ohlen, because we didn’t know who we would get.”


The team has both been hand-picked from the main BioWare studio in Edmonton, and recruited from the now large and experienced pool of developers who have previously worked in the MMO industry. But getting a game like this right is not just about having talented people, it’s about having loads of talented people. “Once you go over 100 people, communicating what you’re doing, and what you’re trying to achieve, and how everyone’s little element fits in, that becomes very difficult,” says Vogel. “Get beyond a tribe and you have a problem.”

And this game does encompass more than one tribe. While BioWare might have already done loads of creative work with the KotOR games, they aren’t entirely free to mess with the canon. Star Wars is still owned, and tightly controlled, by LucasArts. “Everything has to be cleared,” Walton admits. “But it’s actually been relatively smooth. Part of the decision to use the KotOR era was to allow us some latitude, some freedom to get away from the films. So we’re in an ideal spot to have a lot of familiar stuff, but there’s loads of freedom.”

That freedom is important, because BioWare’s great big innovation for MMOs is going to create massive lore headaches. BioWare intend for The Old Republic to be the first successful story-driven MMO game. On the face of it, that doesn’t make much sense: surely we’ve been told that the player’s story, not the developers’ story, is the point of MMO games?

Playing The Old Republic rapidly defeats that twisted logic. Our demo begins on the bridge of a Star Destroyer, talking to a captain who has done a very, very bad thing. In this case, a crime punishable by death. A fully voiced cutscene follows, with the kind of dialogue choices and moral consequences that you’d usually expect from single-player role-playing games.

“I’m sorry for my failures,” says the captain. “Just please, respect my crew.” At this point, we’re given a choice: kill him and promote his first officer, or let him live. The first time we play, we let the poor sap live. Then we launch the Star Destroyer into hyperspace - the better to ambush a rebel freighter. When we arrive, the freighter attacks, launching pods filled with troopers and Jedi toward our Star Destroyer. The captain assesses the problem quickly, and orders all turbo lasers to track and destroy the pods. He also asks the medical bay to stand by.

A few invaders make it through. When distress calls come from engineering, and our party fights from the bridge down through the decks, it’s a fairly simple process, and we’re reinforced by a steady stream of revived NPC characters, fresh from being healed by the medical droids.

The next time around, we decide to kill the Captain. His ambitious first officer quickly assumes command, and immediately orders the Destroyer into hyperspace. At arrival, the pods are sent out again. Our new First Officer is smug, yet inexperienced. She ignores the boarding parties and demands all fire be focused on the freighter’s engines and powerbays. “If they can’t move, they can’t attack.” The ship is quickly overwhelmed. Distress calls come in from all decks. We have to head off immediately.

The numbers are striking, particularly without the buffed and healed reinforcements from sickbay. Rather than a group of cut-off and lonely rebels, the encounter ends with a particularly vicious Jedi. The demo demonstrates, so very clearly, what BioWare mean by choice and story. The Star Destroyer serves as an instance, like WoW’s dungeons, yet this wasn’t simply a romp through a series of angry monsters. It was a back-and-forth through different portions of the ship. And, at any point, we could invite our buddies along to help.


BioWare aim to fill ToR with this kind of mission to a truly extraordinary extent. Each of the six player classes will have an entirely unique, entirely separate story and series of quests. If you were to play each class in turn, you wouldn’t repeat a single mission, or see a repeated location.

It gets better. Each of those campaigns is the equivalent of one of the previous KotOR games. A grand adventure for each of the six character classes. Each of those campaigns is fully voiced, with multiple paths (and every dialogue choice is spoken. This is probably the largest voiceover project the games industry has ever undertaken). It’s a big, big, big game.

What BioWare are delivering is the largest expansion of detail within the Star Wars universe ever conceived. They’re fleshing out one of the least detailed periods of Star Wars history, where Sith and Jedi existed in mutual antagonism for centuries – the galaxy teetering on the brink of war, having already suffered many catastrophic conflicts, culminating in the sacking of Coruscant itself – the galactic capital.

This creates a problem: most people aren’t familiar with the expanded Star Wars universe. BioWare have groundwork to do, as Vogel explains: “So all this stuff we’re doing around the game: the comic, the timeline videos, that’s all to bring people up to speed with the setting. Millions of people have played KotOR but we want millions more who have not played a KotOR game to be up to speed with the setting and engaged in this universe. That’s why we’re doing all that stuff.”

This kind of development comes naturally to BioWare after years of RPG development. They’re a veritable content-building army. But their multiplayer gaming comes from a different angle: they’ve had to hire staff who were more familiar with the MMO scene. Did that create problems? “Not really,” says Vogel, “because even the single-player guys want to make multiplayer games, and they want to solve these problems.”

What was more important still was that BioWare, like Valve, get a playable prototype in place as soon as is feasible, and start designing by playing. “We get stuff up very early, and make sure it works,” says Vogel. “If something doesn’t work you just let it go as quickly as possible.”

This philosophy is what has made ToR’s combat system so excitingly diverse. BioWare have developed different game mechanics for every character class. The Jedi and Sith are melee-focused magic users, while smuggler and trooper classes will use cover to keep out of trouble, and fight with blasters. The bounty-hunter, the only other class so far revealed, can use the kinds of tools we seldom see in MMOs: a jetpack and a flamethrower. Walton explains that this was intentional: “You have to do that if you want players to have different experiences while playing together.” Each of the classes has their own separate game mechanic, and each needs to be catered to within the layout of the levels. As we trundle down a Star Destroyer corridor as a Sith, we notice abandoned equipment lockers and crevices at the side of the room.

“Hmm. Are they for the smuggler class to hide behind?”
“Yes. It’s causing a real headache for our level designers.”

And all this takes place in the name of fun. BioWare want their first MMO to be as full of life, character and story as their single-player RPGs. “We have to ignore the top of the hardcore,” says Walton, talking about those players who will simply ignore the story and min-max their way to the top end of the game. “We need to make a game that is accessible to the Star Wars fan, and the BioWare fan. Because really BioWare is a company that is about making a great RPG experience, not about making games for a hardcore MMO audience.”

“We’ve been iterating the first ten levels, and playing, and making changes based on that. You have to get the foundations right if you’re going to make the entire game work. We have a person who works on balance for PvE, a person working on choreography... And fun dominates that. Balance means balancing for fun. Is it fun? Then that’s how it should work.”
It is fun: just a few minutes of combat demonstrate that. A Sith character leaping into the fray, a smuggler hanging back and using cover. “I don’t know if you noticed,” Vogel says, “but it’s all synchronized combat. We have a synchronized animation system - it’s not like every other MMO where it’s two guys dancing, watching each other run through the animations. This is like KotOR. Blades hit, we can block stuff, people are actually parrying – you always know why he hit.” This combat dynamic, combined with group dynamics, will be fascinating to work with. But what if you want to join the party halfway through a mission? Isn’t that going to be confusing for other players? “We actually have a system to do that. You have to decide: either we’re going to start over for you, or they could join you where you are.”

“It’s a fun challenge,” says Vogel. It’s the kind of challenge BioWare seem to relish. “There are two flavors to our design team. There are the story guys who say ‘we want to make everything as detailed as a single-player game’, and then we have the hardcore MMO multiplayer guys who are always going to ask that exact question: ‘Where are my guys? Where are my guys? Why can’t I meet them?’”

Providing the solutions to these problems is something Walton seems confident about: “You’re playing this game live, in a hostile environment, on a buggy connection, and it works because we got the best-in-industry people from all over. We have a huge amount of programming experience from different MMOs, all of whom are terrified of launch day. They have every horror story, everything to prepare for going into the launch.”

That launch is going to be vital. This is BioWare’s bid to reclaim their territory on the PC. “The PC is in a terrible place,” says Walton, “but online is in a great place.” Does he see the PC and online as separate platforms? “They are different platforms. They require different methodologies.” For Walton the evolution of online gaming has created both a new format, and a new gamer. “They’re looking for evolution, not static. They’re looking for a differentiated product. Look at Team Fortress 2... You have to keep bringing out content, or the game disappears after the first weeks.”

Vogel chimes in at this point: “The PC industry is like the music industry, it’s evolving away from a sold product to an online presence.” An online presence. There’s one online presence that looms so large on the PC that it scarcely needs mentioning: World of Warcraft. Even when The Old Republic is at its most exciting we can only think back to how much we’ve already gotten out of WoW. Something ActiBlizzard boss Bobby Kotick once said springs to mind: anyone intending to take on WoW had better have some pretty deep pockets. But do you really need a billion dollars to take down WoW?

Vogel laughs: “You have to be smart. You have to develop with people who have experience and understand the game.” Walton is similarly upbeat: “If I was doing a fantasy RPG on the same plane as World of Warcraft, well, you better spend a **** load of money.” But he doesn’t see taking WoW on at its own game as a realistic, or even desirable goal. He argues that new MMOs need to create their own template.

“I thought Age of Conan would be more differentiated. We were betting that both Age of Conan and WAR (Warhammer Online) would have been bigger than they are, but that’s down to their execution, not the market... Age of Conan would have really had something if they’ve maintained that great experience beyond the first 20 levels... What happened to that? When you get past the first 20 levels that experience went away. You can’t do that, not in this climate. The market is ready for differentiation. There’s a lot of WoW fatigue. It doesn’t matter how good that game is, you’re going to get tired of it.”

At the end of the presentation, the point is made that what BioWare have shown is nothing like the MMOs we know of today. Where are the PvP arenas? Or the large, 25+ player raids? Or auction houses? Or, hey, space-combat? Vogel raises an eyebrow. “Oh, we have all that too. We’re just going to wait a little bit to show you that.” That’s a promise that seems too good to be true. Stay tuned. The Old Republic is going to be huge.

Jul 6, 2009

[Rodo]

Must...not...get...interested...

[Darth Gently]

Originally Posted by Rodo

Must...not...get...interested...

Deny your destiny, you can not.

[Kal]

That was a great article. I'm very encouraged by the story paths for each class and making it feel like a single-player game. Amazing, I continue to be hopeful that this game will break new ground and be a fantastic offering.

[DrRivCific]

I so don't want to let myself get excited about this...

...why oh why am I so weak?

-DRC

[Kal]

Why not get excited? Come on! "He who hesitates is lost". I understand people don't want to let their deepest fantasies that this game is going to be stunning, unbelievable, beyond fun, and drenched in Star Wars immersion...people don't want to because they have been down that road with one game or another, and had the rug pulled out from under them.

But we stand to lose out on a great opportunity to be organized and well-prepared to enter this MMO as a group with this thinking. We are all grown up here. We can handle disappointment. If it shall come to pass that TOR cannot deliver, we will survive. We might become a bit more jaded, we might have wounds to lick, we might have to look at a ton of work and organization and group effort as expended, but none of our time will be wasted because we will be doing what we do together, as TCO, as the guild that defined what a player association could be.

Seriously, I don't want to pack all my hopes for a great game into TOR and then have it deliver just a twitchy click-fest game for fanboys to run around with lightsabers and play jedi vs. sith with no meaningful content or worse, content that caters to raids and power gamers. But I've lived through those things before, and I can survive another if I have to...I can't imagine me not being involved in TOR when I know how much I enjoy the genre of Star Wars and the games KotOR1 and KotOR2 which Bioware already has delivered.

I am *going* to play this game, at least for the first month or two. I don't know where I will find the time, but I will somehow. And regardless of the game being great or adequate or even bad, if TCO is there, it will be a well spent month or two.

There...I stuck my head out. Who is with me?

[DrRivCific]

**stands next to Kal**

I'm here with you brother... from Open Beta (at least) to wherever it takes us from there.

-DRC

[Orba]

I'll be there, hopefully from beta (crosses fingers)

[Rodo]

Yeah, I think I'll probably be playing too. I'm loving the way they're rolling out the historical archives on the official site too much. Reminds me of all the Tales of the Old Republic and Sith Wars material. Those were some of my favorite SW related stories actually...I mean, c'mon, Tott DONEETA.

[Vaar Sado]

If you guys are serious about a place in TOR i might be interested in joining I have had a falling out of sorts with the old Chilly BH crowd and am pretty much a loner atm. I dont know how much i plan on playing TOR though other then once through for the storyline.

[DrRivCific]

It looks like we're going to be making a serious foray into TOR. We're in the process of organizing (isn't that what TCO does best? Organize itself into oblivion) but there are some big things on the burner that might just make this TCO's biggest jump into a new MMO yet.

-DRC

[Cethieg]

From what I understand about TOR is that the game will have both RVR and Morality type play. Sort of like Mass Effect. If you not sure what mean, get a copy of Mass Effect and play it. Anyway TOR is still aways off and am looking foward to it. I would love to see this guild in TOR. As for the beta, there is no official signup for it, there is a unofficial signup on the TOR forums. But from what I gather, they are not going to have any type of open beta due to security concerns and they have noticed other MMO's that have had open beta's have had their source code stolen, cheaters, hackers, exploiters and other morons. So would not be suprised if they do not have a open beta for TOR.

[Kal]

Good advice from many perspectives Cethieg. Mass Effect is a great game, and the interface looks a lot like what they are showing for TOR, particularly the conversation aspect.

[Relan]

Defintely count me interested

[Kal]

Bot senses tingling...

[Docmdnite]

i feel honored, it used MY thread to post in.

[Cethieg]

It looks that they are offering Game Testing Sign ups through end of this month. Have sign up for it. They made it clear that it is not a beta test and they made it perfectly clear that the NDA if you get into the Game Testing will be enforced to the letter.

There is no word on when Game Testing Selection will begin. I think if you are looking for a BETA testing experience you not going to get picked. They do not want beta testers, they want game testers. Seems Beta Testing has a bad reputation of being associated with cheaters and exploiters.

[Docmdnite]

whats the difference between game testing and beta testing?

[Cethieg]

Originally Posted by Docmdnite

whats the difference between game testing and beta testing?

That is the same question that was posed to the devs in the TOR forums and they have not responded. So your guess is good a mine.

IMO think game testing would be to test the storyline part of the game, stress testing and ect. Similiar to beta testing but they are calling it game testing since the word beta testing has a high negative reputation. Then again we just usually blame EA's marketing teams.

[DrRivCific]

Well you know, I wouldn't be surprised if "game testing" was something akin to what Cethig suggests.

Clearly this game aspires to be something "different". With so many story threads and so much alleged interactivity and choose-your-own-adventure ness, I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware wants to test out how the stories thread/progress completely seperate from gameplay.

If this game is as new and different as they claim it is, perhaps it's appropriate to invent a totally different pre-game beta paradigm.

I'm looking forward to getting my invitation to find out.

-DRC

[Kal]

Well, if they want to test the story continuity and fluidity, they would be ill-advised not to ask me to look at it

[DrRivCific]

Is that an admission of receiving a sought-after email in your inbox?

-DRC

[Morthax Bytor]

I signed up for beta this past weekend, not sure what the chances are of getting selected for beta but I'm interested. I'd be even more interested in TCO in TOR. It really made SWG for me, made beta testing fun too

[Kal]

I find the best place to look for books on Forex is the public library, under the BANNED BOTS section!!!

[Munch]

Ill be on SW TOR, Im just hoping we can have those gambling night in the cantina again. That was one of my best memories from SWG. I don't remember who was with me, but we gambled until sunrise lol.

[Khadin]

Hey, all.

The more I see about this game the more interested I become. I'm tired of fantasy MMOs. At least this has lightsabers and blasters. Oh, and robots and spaceships. Hooray, sci-fi!

[Darth Gently]

Hey Khadin, what's the haps? Long time no see.

[Mithrin]

Khadin? Khadin... now that's a name I've not heard in a long time...

It'd be great to play with you and the rest of the oldtimers (and our newer folks, of course!) again.

*flees before Lord Gently notices there's a Jedi sympathizer about*

[Khadin]

Not too much. The big things since I've last been about have basically been earning a degree and landing a job.

I haven't played an MMO since last November when I quit WoW...erm, again. For good. Hopefully. Yeah. Anyway, I've really enjoyed Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 somewhat recently (just beat ME2 again ), so you can tell I have high hopes for Bioware. Let's see if they keep up their streak.

Other than that I've been working on a game project of my own that will begin development in the near future, ideally. Just waiting on the programmer(s) to finish their current work.

How have you guys been?

[mzkovo]

Though not with TCO at the time, I played SWG for 6 months before the NGE (sorry to mention it) and for about a month afterward. To this day, I still think it was the best MMO I've ever played (the soundtrack alone was better than all of WoW). TOR doesn't have to be anything like it, but I have to believe that BioWare and LucasArts won't put out another SW-based MMO without making sure it's a winner. LOTRO will be hard-pressed to keep my attention once TOR is out. I'm looking forward to playing with all the non-LOTRO-based TCO members I haven't met yet too. The more the merrier.